“That it is better 100 guilty persons should escape than that one innocent person should suffer, is a maxim that has been long and generally approved.” - Benjamin Franklin
Deposition of Richard Gigliotti
1 IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF ALLEGHENY COUNTY,
PENNSYLVANIA
2
- - -
3
CHARLES J. GOLDBLUM, ) CIVIL DIVISION
4 )
Plaintiff, ) No. GD 98-6096
5 )
vs. ) DEPOSITION OF
6 ) RICHARD GIGLIOTTI
CLARENCE MILLER, ) (edited)
7 ) Filed on Behalf of
Defendant. ) Plaintiff
8 )
) Counsel of Record for
9 ) This Party:
)
10 ) Lee Markovitz, Esq.
)
11 ) Law Offices of Lee Markovitz
)
12 ) 1220 Grant Building
) Pittsburgh, PA 15219
13
14
15
16 - - -
17 DEPOSITION OF RICHARD GIGLIOTTI
18 - - -
FERRARI COURT REPORTING
105 Dakotah Drive
Butler, PA 16001
(724) 283-9228
2
1 - - -
2 DEPOSITION OF RICHARD GIGLIOTTI, a witness
3 herein, called by the Plaintiff, for examination, taken
4 pursuant to the Pennsylvania Rules of Civil Procedure, by
5 and before Cheryl B. Morris, a Court Reporter and a Notary
6 Public in and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, at the
7 Butler County Prison, 121 Vogeley Way, Butler, Pa., on
8 Monday, June 7, 1999, at 1:04 p.m.
9
10
11
COUNSEL PRESENT:
12
13 For the Plaintiff: Law Office of Lee Markovitz
by Lee Markovitz, Esq.
14
15
For the Commonwealth: Governor's Office of General
16 Counsel
by Syndi L. Guido, Esq.
17
3
1
2 - I N D E X -
3
WITNESS PAGE
4 ________________________________________________________
5 RICHARD GIGLIOTTI
6 By Mr. Markovitz
4
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 - - -
3 RICHARD GIGLIOTTI, a witness herein, having been
4 first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. MARKOVITZ:
7 Q. Would you state your name please?
8 A. Richard Gigliotti, G-i-g-l-i-o-t-t-i.
9 Q. And you are the warden of the Butler County
10 Jail?
11 A. Correct.
5
1 Q. How long have you been the warden of the Butler
2 County Jail?
3 A. Since September of 1988.
4 Q. And in addition to that, you also serve as a
5 member of the Pennsylvania Board of Pardons; is that
6 correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And how long have you served on that board?
9 A. December 1995.
10 Q. And you recently handled the case of the
11 application of Charles J. Goldblum, a life prisoner, who
12 had applied for commutation; is that correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And in the course of that case, I understand you
15 had occasion to meet another individual who was involved
16 in that case by the name of Clarence Miller; is that
17 correct?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And Clarence Miller is housed at the State
20 Correctional Institution in Pittsburgh; is that right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And how was it that you came to meet Clarence
23 Miller?
24 A. It was approximately five days to a week before
25 the Pardons Board hearing that we were going to have with
6
1 the applicant, Mr. Goldblum, and I wanted to get current
2 information or statements from Miller on his take as
3 co-Defendant of this case involving Goldblum with the
4 murder that occurred some 20 years prior to that.
14 Q. So this meeting would have taken place right
15 around May the 1st, give or take a day or two?
16 A. My conversation with Mr. Miller happened on
17 Thursday, April 29, 1999.
7
4 Q. Okay. Who was present in the room with you and
5 Mr. Miller?
6 A. Obviously Mr. Miller and Attorney General Mike
7 Fisher.
8 Q. Okay. So just the three of you?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And there was no court reporter?
11 A. No.
12 Q. As we have here today?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And the meeting wasn't tape recorded at all?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did either you or the Attorney General take
17 notes?
18 A. I did not take any notes. I do not recall
19 seeing the Attorney General taking any notes.
20 Q. Okay. And how long if you can estimate was the
21 actual meeting with Mr. Miller?
22 A. We first came in and exchanged pleasantries.
23 I'm estimating 40 minutes approximately.
15 Q. Did Mr. Miller voluntarily agree to speak with
16 you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did he ask for any consideration in return that
19 you know of for speaking with you?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And now prior to the meeting, of course, you had
22 been provided with fairly substantial materials relating
23 to the application of Charles Goldblum; is that correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Had you had an opportunity to review those
12
1 materials prior to meeting with Mr. Miller?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So by the time you met with Mr. Miller, you had
4 a certain understanding of the case?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And when you met with Mr. Miller, did both you
7 and the Attorney General ask him questions?
8 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Then finally, you at some point began to
16 ask Mr. Miller about the murder of George Wilhelm I
17 assume?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What did you ask him?
20 A. The one thing that I can recall asking him is
21 that for many of the years that he has been incarcerated,
22 I believe he's been in jail now for approximately 22
23 years, for much of that time, he has denied direct
24 involvement in the actual stabbing of the victim. I asked
25 him if that was still his statement and he said no. He
14
1 said that he now openly admits his involvement along with
2 Goldblum's involvement in the stabbing and murdering of
3 the victim.
4 Q. Okay. And specifically, how did he describe
5 Goldblum's involvement and his own involvement in that
6 stabbing?
7 A. I can recall him saying that Goldblum was
8 sitting in the back seat and inflicted the first wound by
9 coming up over the back seat over the shoulder of Mr. --
10 Q. Wilhelm.
11 A. -- Wilhelm and stabbing him in, in the lower
12 chest or stomach area. He was describing it as we were
13 sitting in a chair, the hand coming over and inserting a
14 blade into the victim.
15 Q. And did he go on to describe how Mr. Wilhelm
16 suffered the remaining 23 or 25 stab wounds that he
17 received?
18 A. He said that he participated in those along with
19 Goldblum as they were chasing him across the parking lot
20 stabbing him and then eventually throwing him over the top
21 of the parking lot.
22 Q. Did he say who was wielding the blade in those
23 other stabbings?
24 A. He told me that Goldblum definitely started the
25 stabbing and then he took the blade from Goldblum or
15
1 Goldblum handed him the blade and Miller continued the
2 stabbing. How many each of them did, I don't even think
3 he has a clear recollection.
4 Q. Did Mr. Miller say anything to you about the
5 purpose of the meeting with Mr. Wilhelm regarding the
6 murder?
7 A. He told me that he thought he used the words
8 that Goldblum supposedly had used saying that he's going
9 to get an upcoming or he's going to get his. Miller
10 claiming that what he thought was that they were going to
11 rough him up. Miller thought that Wilhelm was just going
12 to get roughed up or beat up and he hadn't realized that
13 it was going to lead to the ultimate killing of Wilhelm.
14 Q. So Miller said to you that they were planning on
15 assaulting Wilhelm that night?
16 A. He did not say that they were planning on it.
17 He said that Goldblum indicated that he was going to take
18 care of things and the way Miller described it or
19 indicated to us was that they were going to rough Wilhelm
20 up.
21 Q. Did you understand when Mr. Miller told you that
22 he inflicted stab wounds on Mr. Wilhelm, did you
23 understand that that was something that was different from
24 anything he had said before or anything that appeared in
25 the record before?
16
1 A. Well, I was under the impression that initially,
2 upon first arrest, I was under the impression that a
3 statement was made that both of them were involved in a
4 stabbing which led to the death of Wilhelm and then
5 throughout the defense of the case, that changed to a not
6 guilty and for many of those years and I'm guessing
7 approximately 15 to 18 years maintained, Miller maintained
8 that he did not inflict any stab wounds. Miller explained
9 that this was up until within the last what he called
10 recently the last year or two where since then his health
11 has declined and he's had a religious conversion -- not a
12 religious conversion, where he states that he has made
13 peace with Jesus Christ and that he has no reason to lie
14 because he knows due to his health that he probably will
15 not be alive for very many years.
16 Q. Was he still incarcerated in the general
17 population there as far as you could tell?
18 A. I don't know that. He came back just shortly
19 before us.
20 Q. Did he appear to be coherent to you when you
21 interviewed him?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was he able to understand the questions that you
24 and the Attorney General posed and was able to respond in
25 a rational way to them?
17
1 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. What did Mr. Miller say about how the
19 murder weapon was transferred from Mr. Goldblum to Mr.
20 Miller?
21 A. He indicated that after the initial stabbing
22 occurred by Mr. Goldblum that he then handed off the shear
23 which was a broken grass shear to Miller and then Miller
24 began stabbing him.
25 Q. And was this handing off, was this related in
18
1 some way to when the victim left the vehicle?
2 A. I don't know that. If he said when they handed
3 it off to one another, I cannot recall when that transfer
4 took place.
5 Q. But Mr. Miller did say that he himself had
6 stabbed Mr. Wilhelm in addition to Mr. Goldblum, that he
7 Miller had stabbed Mr. Wilhelm; is that correct?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. But he did not say how many times he stabbed
10 him; is that correct?
11 A. I do not believe he gave us a number as to how
12 many times he stabbed him.
13 Q. Well, he told you that Mr. Goldblum stabbed Mr.
14 Wilhelm first one time in the car; is that right?
15 A. He didn't say one time. He said that he stabbed
16 him first.
17 Q. First time?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And did he indicate how many times Mr. Goldblum
20 stabbed Mr. Wilhelm?
21 A. He didn't give a number. I got the impression
22 that it was a quick couple times before Mr. Wilhelm was
23 able to get out of the vehicle.
24 Q. Okay. And again, he did not put the handing off
25 of the blade in any kind of time frame in connection with
19
1 Mr. Wilhelm getting out of the vehicle?
2 A. No, he did not.
3 MR. MARKOVITZ: Okay. I don't have any
4 other questions. I don't know if you want to inquire at
5 all.
6 MS. GUIDO: No.
7
16 MR. MARKOVITZ: That concludes the
17 deposition.
COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA )
4 ) SS
COUNTY OF BUTLER )
5
CERTIFICATE
6
I, Cheryl B. Morris, a Notary Public in and for the
7 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania do hereby certify that the
witness, RICHARD GIGLIOTTI, having been duly sworn to
8 testify to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth; that the foregoing deposition was taken at the time
9 and place stated herein; and that the said deposition was
recorded stenographically by me and reduced to typewriting
10 by computer and constitutes a true record of the testimony
given by said witness.
11
I further certify that the inspection, reading and
12 signing of said deposition was not waived by counsel for
the respective parties and by the witness.
13
I further certify that I am not a relative, employee
14 or attorney of any of the parties, or a relative or
employee of either counsel, and that I am in no way
15 interested directly or indirectly in this action.
16 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand
and affixed my seal of office this ________ day of
17 _________________, 1999.
18
FERRARI COURT REPORTING
19
20
21 _________________________________
Cheryl B. Morris, Notary Public
22 Court Reporter
Deposition of Richard Gigliotti TABLE OF CONTENTS Previous Next
1 IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF ALLEGHENY COUNTY,
PENNSYLVANIA
2
- - -
3
CHARLES J. GOLDBLUM, ) CIVIL DIVISION
4 )
Plaintiff, ) No. GD 98-6096
5 )
vs. ) DEPOSITION OF
6 ) RICHARD GIGLIOTTI
CLARENCE MILLER, ) (edited)
7 ) Filed on Behalf of
Defendant. ) Plaintiff
8 )
) Counsel of Record for
9 ) This Party:
)
10 ) Lee Markovitz, Esq.
)
11 ) Law Offices of Lee Markovitz
)
12 ) 1220 Grant Building
) Pittsburgh, PA 15219
13
14
15
16 - - -
17 DEPOSITION OF RICHARD GIGLIOTTI
18 - - -
FERRARI COURT REPORTING
105 Dakotah Drive
Butler, PA 16001
(724) 283-9228
2
1 - - -
2 DEPOSITION OF RICHARD GIGLIOTTI, a witness
3 herein, called by the Plaintiff, for examination, taken
4 pursuant to the Pennsylvania Rules of Civil Procedure, by
5 and before Cheryl B. Morris, a Court Reporter and a Notary
6 Public in and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, at the
7 Butler County Prison, 121 Vogeley Way, Butler, Pa., on
8 Monday, June 7, 1999, at 1:04 p.m.
9
10
11
COUNSEL PRESENT:
12
13 For the Plaintiff: Law Office of Lee Markovitz
by Lee Markovitz, Esq.
14
15
For the Commonwealth: Governor's Office of General
16 Counsel
by Syndi L. Guido, Esq.
17
3
1
2 - I N D E X -
3
WITNESS PAGE
4 ________________________________________________________
5 RICHARD GIGLIOTTI
6 By Mr. Markovitz
4
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 - - -
3 RICHARD GIGLIOTTI, a witness herein, having been
4 first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. MARKOVITZ:
7 Q. Would you state your name please?
8 A. Richard Gigliotti, G-i-g-l-i-o-t-t-i.
9 Q. And you are the warden of the Butler County
10 Jail?
11 A. Correct.
5
1 Q. How long have you been the warden of the Butler
2 County Jail?
3 A. Since September of 1988.
4 Q. And in addition to that, you also serve as a
5 member of the Pennsylvania Board of Pardons; is that
6 correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And how long have you served on that board?
9 A. December 1995.
10 Q. And you recently handled the case of the
11 application of Charles J. Goldblum, a life prisoner, who
12 had applied for commutation; is that correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And in the course of that case, I understand you
15 had occasion to meet another individual who was involved
16 in that case by the name of Clarence Miller; is that
17 correct?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And Clarence Miller is housed at the State
20 Correctional Institution in Pittsburgh; is that right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And how was it that you came to meet Clarence
23 Miller?
24 A. It was approximately five days to a week before
25 the Pardons Board hearing that we were going to have with
6
1 the applicant, Mr. Goldblum, and I wanted to get current
2 information or statements from Miller on his take as
3 co-Defendant of this case involving Goldblum with the
4 murder that occurred some 20 years prior to that.
14 Q. So this meeting would have taken place right
15 around May the 1st, give or take a day or two?
16 A. My conversation with Mr. Miller happened on
17 Thursday, April 29, 1999.
7
4 Q. Okay. Who was present in the room with you and
5 Mr. Miller?
6 A. Obviously Mr. Miller and Attorney General Mike
7 Fisher.
8 Q. Okay. So just the three of you?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And there was no court reporter?
11 A. No.
12 Q. As we have here today?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And the meeting wasn't tape recorded at all?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did either you or the Attorney General take
17 notes?
18 A. I did not take any notes. I do not recall
19 seeing the Attorney General taking any notes.
20 Q. Okay. And how long if you can estimate was the
21 actual meeting with Mr. Miller?
22 A. We first came in and exchanged pleasantries.
23 I'm estimating 40 minutes approximately.
15 Q. Did Mr. Miller voluntarily agree to speak with
16 you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did he ask for any consideration in return that
19 you know of for speaking with you?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And now prior to the meeting, of course, you had
22 been provided with fairly substantial materials relating
23 to the application of Charles Goldblum; is that correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Had you had an opportunity to review those
12
1 materials prior to meeting with Mr. Miller?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So by the time you met with Mr. Miller, you had
4 a certain understanding of the case?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And when you met with Mr. Miller, did both you
7 and the Attorney General ask him questions?
8 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Then finally, you at some point began to
16 ask Mr. Miller about the murder of George Wilhelm I
17 assume?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What did you ask him?
20 A. The one thing that I can recall asking him is
21 that for many of the years that he has been incarcerated,
22 I believe he's been in jail now for approximately 22
23 years, for much of that time, he has denied direct
24 involvement in the actual stabbing of the victim. I asked
25 him if that was still his statement and he said no. He
14
1 said that he now openly admits his involvement along with
2 Goldblum's involvement in the stabbing and murdering of
3 the victim.
4 Q. Okay. And specifically, how did he describe
5 Goldblum's involvement and his own involvement in that
6 stabbing?
7 A. I can recall him saying that Goldblum was
8 sitting in the back seat and inflicted the first wound by
9 coming up over the back seat over the shoulder of Mr. --
10 Q. Wilhelm.
11 A. -- Wilhelm and stabbing him in, in the lower
12 chest or stomach area. He was describing it as we were
13 sitting in a chair, the hand coming over and inserting a
14 blade into the victim.
15 Q. And did he go on to describe how Mr. Wilhelm
16 suffered the remaining 23 or 25 stab wounds that he
17 received?
18 A. He said that he participated in those along with
19 Goldblum as they were chasing him across the parking lot
20 stabbing him and then eventually throwing him over the top
21 of the parking lot.
22 Q. Did he say who was wielding the blade in those
23 other stabbings?
24 A. He told me that Goldblum definitely started the
25 stabbing and then he took the blade from Goldblum or
15
1 Goldblum handed him the blade and Miller continued the
2 stabbing. How many each of them did, I don't even think
3 he has a clear recollection.
4 Q. Did Mr. Miller say anything to you about the
5 purpose of the meeting with Mr. Wilhelm regarding the
6 murder?
7 A. He told me that he thought he used the words
8 that Goldblum supposedly had used saying that he's going
9 to get an upcoming or he's going to get his. Miller
10 claiming that what he thought was that they were going to
11 rough him up. Miller thought that Wilhelm was just going
12 to get roughed up or beat up and he hadn't realized that
13 it was going to lead to the ultimate killing of Wilhelm.
14 Q. So Miller said to you that they were planning on
15 assaulting Wilhelm that night?
16 A. He did not say that they were planning on it.
17 He said that Goldblum indicated that he was going to take
18 care of things and the way Miller described it or
19 indicated to us was that they were going to rough Wilhelm
20 up.
21 Q. Did you understand when Mr. Miller told you that
22 he inflicted stab wounds on Mr. Wilhelm, did you
23 understand that that was something that was different from
24 anything he had said before or anything that appeared in
25 the record before?
16
1 A. Well, I was under the impression that initially,
2 upon first arrest, I was under the impression that a
3 statement was made that both of them were involved in a
4 stabbing which led to the death of Wilhelm and then
5 throughout the defense of the case, that changed to a not
6 guilty and for many of those years and I'm guessing
7 approximately 15 to 18 years maintained, Miller maintained
8 that he did not inflict any stab wounds. Miller explained
9 that this was up until within the last what he called
10 recently the last year or two where since then his health
11 has declined and he's had a religious conversion -- not a
12 religious conversion, where he states that he has made
13 peace with Jesus Christ and that he has no reason to lie
14 because he knows due to his health that he probably will
15 not be alive for very many years.
16 Q. Was he still incarcerated in the general
17 population there as far as you could tell?
18 A. I don't know that. He came back just shortly
19 before us.
20 Q. Did he appear to be coherent to you when you
21 interviewed him?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was he able to understand the questions that you
24 and the Attorney General posed and was able to respond in
25 a rational way to them?
17
1 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. What did Mr. Miller say about how the
19 murder weapon was transferred from Mr. Goldblum to Mr.
20 Miller?
21 A. He indicated that after the initial stabbing
22 occurred by Mr. Goldblum that he then handed off the shear
23 which was a broken grass shear to Miller and then Miller
24 began stabbing him.
25 Q. And was this handing off, was this related in
18
1 some way to when the victim left the vehicle?
2 A. I don't know that. If he said when they handed
3 it off to one another, I cannot recall when that transfer
4 took place.
5 Q. But Mr. Miller did say that he himself had
6 stabbed Mr. Wilhelm in addition to Mr. Goldblum, that he
7 Miller had stabbed Mr. Wilhelm; is that correct?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. But he did not say how many times he stabbed
10 him; is that correct?
11 A. I do not believe he gave us a number as to how
12 many times he stabbed him.
13 Q. Well, he told you that Mr. Goldblum stabbed Mr.
14 Wilhelm first one time in the car; is that right?
15 A. He didn't say one time. He said that he stabbed
16 him first.
17 Q. First time?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And did he indicate how many times Mr. Goldblum
20 stabbed Mr. Wilhelm?
21 A. He didn't give a number. I got the impression
22 that it was a quick couple times before Mr. Wilhelm was
23 able to get out of the vehicle.
24 Q. Okay. And again, he did not put the handing off
25 of the blade in any kind of time frame in connection with
19
1 Mr. Wilhelm getting out of the vehicle?
2 A. No, he did not.
3 MR. MARKOVITZ: Okay. I don't have any
4 other questions. I don't know if you want to inquire at
5 all.
6 MS. GUIDO: No.
7
16 MR. MARKOVITZ: That concludes the
17 deposition.
COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA )
4 ) SS
COUNTY OF BUTLER )
5
CERTIFICATE
6
I, Cheryl B. Morris, a Notary Public in and for the
7 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania do hereby certify that the
witness, RICHARD GIGLIOTTI, having been duly sworn to
8 testify to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth; that the foregoing deposition was taken at the time
9 and place stated herein; and that the said deposition was
recorded stenographically by me and reduced to typewriting
10 by computer and constitutes a true record of the testimony
given by said witness.
11
I further certify that the inspection, reading and
12 signing of said deposition was not waived by counsel for
the respective parties and by the witness.
13
I further certify that I am not a relative, employee
14 or attorney of any of the parties, or a relative or
employee of either counsel, and that I am in no way
15 interested directly or indirectly in this action.
16 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand
and affixed my seal of office this ________ day of
17 _________________, 1999.
18
FERRARI COURT REPORTING
19
20
21 _________________________________
Cheryl B. Morris, Notary Public
22 Court Reporter